Compassion Forum

[giftederic]

Just watched the Compassion Forum, a democratic primary debate of which Faith & Politics was the theme.

Putting my cards on the table:
As a non American I can't vote, so my opinion is purely that, just an opinion
If I had a vote I would be voting for Hillary (both before and after the debate)
I am secular to the core. It wasn't always this way, but that is currently the lay of the land.

I thought that Hillary was completely unconvincing as a christian. She reeks of secularism, and I think she is a christian by convenience.

I thought that Obama, who I had assumed was also largely secular, seemed to be too close to god for my comfort levels. Its not that he isn't rational, and he was at pains to stress that he believes in evolution etc, I was just more convinced that he might actually believe in god. Maybe he's just a good performer, and was lieing through his pants, really well :), unlike Hillary who was lieing badly, or atleast being very evasive.

(I don't expect honesty from my politicians, and I am happy to try and read between the lines to find their true thoughts. Obviously honesty is preferable, but I think its unrealistic in the world we currently live in, where the majority of voters are informed by dubious media.)

Comments

[kaleandwine.livejournal.com]

Hmm, I could definitely see that. I like him, but Obama certainly seems a very spiritual individual.

I do find it interesting, though... it sounds like you value secularism over honesty? Wouldn't that be putting your "gut feeling" before what you hear from the candidate's mouth and platform, something more akin to religious thought than evidence-based decision-making? Not to argue for/against one candidate or another, or even refute that any candidate isn't a twister-of the-truth... Just trying to make sure I understand this.

[giftederic.livejournal.com]

I value rational thought. It is often rational to lie. I don't value irrational thought, particularly in people entrusted with alot of power.

[kaleandwine.livejournal.com]

Well said. I tip my hat. :)

[giftederic.livejournal.com]

The primary litmus test of a politicians beliefs are their actions, not their words. That should, in theory, lead to evidence based decision making. In regards to faith, Obama seems to have more actions suggesting that he is a person who believes in god. (Though to be fair neither of them can afford to not go to church)

[kaleandwine.livejournal.com]

Understood. Obama is very clearly a man of faith.

Still, I suppose I'm uncomfortable with this notion that what politicians say matters less, and honesty is something we shouldn't expect. After eight years of Bush administration lies, honesty is one of the first things that I'm interested in seeing. I'd like to see credibility restored in my government, and I'd like to see my country in a position where the world can again regard us in some sort of positive light. I'm not sure that following a colossal liar with another liar (whoever they are) is a tolerable concept. I'm an atheist, but I'd take a religious person (any day) over someone who looked me in the face and told me lies. I do think it's possible to be religious and rational. Also think it's possible to be secular and unworthy of trust.

[giftederic.livejournal.com]

Do you think that having politicians who lie to get elected is something that doesn't occur in other countries? Hell, Berlusconi just romped back in Italy, and he has got to be one of the least trusted men in history. You hear the same complaints everywhere, it is impossible to be a politician and not be a liar.

Whats got to be weird for you is the notion that McCain is the closest thing to an honest politician in American politics. There is a man who has a history of telling the establishment to stick it, and a man who oft suprises by telling you what he really thinks. He is definitely way ahead of the democrats on both immigration and free trade, despite neither being popular with the electorate, and has been honest that he doesn't know alot about economics, but would listen to advice. His main problem, for me, is that he is a Republican, and for himself that the most loathable republicans might not vote for him. I can't see McCain winning this one at all. His inability to lie or atleast his lack of expertise at it, is going to sink him as the election moves on. Because becoming president is alot more about lowest common denominators than it is about honesty. Unfortunately.

[kaleandwine.livejournal.com]

Good point -- Straight-talk Express, eh? Too bad he's straight-talking the idiot's platform.

And yes, I totally know that liars are the ones who get elected. I'm just preferring to sit here and stew in my idealistic-optimistic fog, pretending that there was more integrity back in "the old days", and dreaming (somehow) that there's a way to get it back. One can always pointlessly dream...

[(Anonymous)]

The election was the Democrats to lose and they are doing a good job in doing that. The Clinton camp have spent the last month fighting a very dirty campaign of words against Obama (arguing it is for the good of the party as the GoP will do it anyway).
Meanwhile McCain has been around the world looking statesman like.

An election is about getting the lowest common denominator out to vote, because there are more of them than lofty ivory tower educationalists. But McCain has won votes without promising to guarantee jobs that can't be guaranteed. And there seems to be a shift towards realistic presidential promises from the grand I promise you everything I give you nothing that has gone before. Also because the Democratic election drags on they have had to go so far to the left to chase for votes that they will find it difficult to tact back to the middle come November. They are establishing firm lines of campaign policy they will not be able to go back on, and that will only work for a part of the electorate that would have voted for them anyway. So maybe they will come out lying as politicians always have a way of doing and change the ball game again.

Brian

God help us, not Clinton!

[(Anonymous)]

I for one can think of nothing worse than the idea that that crabby aul cow would get into the presidency in America. Granted I can't vote there either but she's one dirty muther and I'd rather see McCain win than her for all that I have no time for the Republicans.

No, Obama might be religious (or perhaps that's just assumed because he's black and a black man leaning slightly toward God is seen like a white man singing Gospel) but he would be a change and he too has stated his willingness to listen to others especially with regard to economics. That's what America needs right now. Not a Hillary! Not someone who'll spend her term doing the 'I told you I could do it' dance! I wish she would just step aside and let the real race get going!

Shane

Re: God help us, not Clinton!

[giftederic.livejournal.com]

Putting it clearly... We've just had 8 years of far right policies, I think a move to the center is preferable to a lurch to the left, which will likely be proceeded by another pedulum shift to the right.

Don't get me wrong, I think Obama could be better for Europe or possibly even Africa, but only in the short term. I don't like Hillary as a person, though it is hard not to respect her, but I try to leave personality out of politics. I have yet to come across a politician I liked as a person.

Re: God help us, not Clinton!

[(Anonymous)]

Bush is quite liked in Africa, it is felt that he has done a lot for the continent. Surprised me too when I heard it but then the media does choose what to run and pro-Bush stories are not going to sell papers in Europe, nor get people tuning in on tv.

Brian